The David Platt video I posted raised some good questions… questions I have been trying to work out for some time.  I’m going to post my thoughts here.  Please understand that I am not making myself out as having a solid grasp of this.  I just think we will benefit from trying to figure this out.  We might just do it, and if we don’t… I still think we’ll grow from the effort.

The question is:  In the video I posted last week, David Platt emphasizes the important place our actions, specifically caring for the poor, have in our salvation.  He also emphasized that his message was not one of salvation by works, but that a true faith in God will transform our hearts such that our works are evidence of our faith.

So… how does that work?  Here are some seemingly conflicting scriptures:

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:4-10

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.  -James 2:20-24

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  –Hebrews 10:26-31

Here’s my perspective:  God’s word does not contradict itself.  So both have to be accurate and fit together – probably with a synergy that makes them even more meaningful together than alone.  The error that so many fall into is “taking sides” and rejecting one concept in favor of another when the truth is in both… it has to be, right?

So, how do these fit together?  Here’s what I think.  Salvation is 100%, completely by grace through faith and 0% by works… or else the Ephesians passage above (and many others) are false.  But faith that does not transform us (or at least begin a process of transformation in us) into the image of Jesus and thus result in works as evidence of that transformation is, as James said, useless.  That does not mean the works earn the salvation.  It means that if there is no evidence of a real love and desire to please God that changes our lives and actions, that there was never any real faith to begin with.

But how much “works” are needed?  If we ask that, I think we’ve missed the point.  To put a measure on works is to imply that we can earn salvation by those works.  What about the thief on the cross?  Some of us don’t have the chance, for a variety of reasons, to give a lot of evidence of our transformation.  But the point David Platt was trying to make (again my opinion only) is that his audience (and for my part, I’ll add myself to that group) does not have that excuse.  We have means similar to the rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and there must be evidence of transformation (works) in our lives or our faith is useless - I know… faith and useless used together will make me some enemies.  But just as the Ephesians passage above must be accurate and true, so must the James passage. 

Finally, what about Dr. Platt’s insistence on giving to the poor as THE type of works that are required as evidence of transformation?  It seems to me that as the wealthiest nation on earth, and given God’s explicit instructions throughout His word about supporting the poor, and the second of what Jesus said are the two most important commandments – loving our neighbors as ourselves – it seems that, for most of us, that sacrificing material things to provide basic needs for orphans, widows, and the poor should be a big part of the evidence or our transformation.

What do you think?  I really do want to know if you think I’ve got it all wrong… and why.  Even if I don’t come around to agreement (but I might), I will thoughtfully consider and read scriptural support for other perspectives and I am confident that process alone will be of great benefit to me.  I ask that you do the same if what I write does not sit right with you.

I think that what you have written is a good summary of the subject we have been discussing (grace / works).  I agree with your comments.  I am wondering how this passage fits into our discussion:

1 Cor. 3:13-15 ...each one’s work will become clear, for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.  If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.  If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 

I know you have to look at this in context with the rest of that chapter & the rest of scripture, but it seems to be saying that you can be saved even if your works fall short.  Of course, it would be shameful and I would say very dangerous to have this as your goal.  If your goal is to do just enough to squeak into heaven, then you probably are not born again.  But it does seem to me that there are some whose works will fall short, but still be saved.  Feel free to tell me if you think I am taking this out of context, or missing the point.

Yep… I think it fits in perfectly.  It seems to me that there is “faith” that is accompanied by no meaningful transformation, and is useless (or “dead” in other translations).  That “faith” is not faith at all and does not indicate true belief and acceptance of God’s grace.  Result: condemnation.  There are also lives like Mother Theresa and Katie Davis.  Then there are the rest of us muddling through somewhere in between and (hopefully) working towards those latter two.  The in-between is what I think this verse applies to.  Not those who have NO real evidence of transformation.

Back to my overall axiom: 1Cor 3:13-15 HAS TO be accurate and fit with everything else in scripture.  It seems that there is a middle ground - still saved, but with a rather unpleasant path after death into eternity.  I think you’re right on point in saying that being saved as through fire is not where any of us want to be.  I think we’ll all agree that we’ll be happier in that day if it’s “well done good and faithful servant”.

Another angle on this: the parable of the sower and the seed.  Note how there are four outcomes in that parable.  The first two seem to indicate condemnation (even though the second group first received the Word with joy).  The third and fourth groups seem to indicate salvation, but the third group of the four was “unfruitful”.  Consistent with your verse in that it indicates some sort of continuum based on what really is evidence of faith and what we do with our faith.

Again… just opinions, but hopefully based on accepting ALL scripture as true, not throwing out the hard ones. (For those of you who don’t know, Rich is my brother so he knows I’m just a schmuck with a platform for my ramblings and not any kind of expert.  He’s just too kind to say it).

I have been hoping for a chance for introductions. Rich, as Jim just said, is his brother. He is married to our dear sister Karen. Karen is a doctor and serves our community and our Lord in that capacity. Rich, an engineer, stays home with their precious 3 boys and now, two fish as I understand it. We love having them as part of our KTM community. Karen and Rich are actively involved in groups that promote Autism awareness and support for families in our community touched by Autism.

Great post and comments.  Here are some added scriptures and thoughts:

Check out one of many “SO THAT” scriptures:
2Tim3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 SO THAT the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

God gave all scripture for us to learn and apply.  We need to be taught, rebuked, corrected and trained…why…SO THAT we know how to do “good work”.

2Tim3:16-17 is another of many calls to do good works.  But there is also strong language in warnings about thinking we may be alright and feel comfortable in our place.  Listen to John the Baptist’s warning which is opened with some name calling:

Luke 3:7-10
7 ...“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”  10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.  11 John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.”

John the Baptist (JTB) warned those who thought they were God’s people to “produce fruit” consistent with their repentance.  Another bible version reads, “Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God. Don’t just say to each other, ‘We’re safe, for we are descendants of Abraham.’”  In New Testament language perhaps we could say, “Don’t just say We’re safe because we have salvation by grace”.

I feel scripture tells us we can only be saved by grace, BUT we are called by the words above to prove or show fruit by works the first of which described by JTB is giving clothes and food to the poor.  Verse 12+ gives us some other ideas we can work on like being honest, content, don’t extort, etc.  If we think the works save us, we miss the point.  If we make honest mistakes and choose work that will burn up, 1 Cor. 3:13-15 shared above shows God truly is gracious to those who honestly make mistakes.  I feel, 1 Cor. 3:13-15 makes me tremble with respect for God that He takes His work (part of which becomes our work) seriously.  It also gives me peace to know, that if I honestly miss it and my works burn up, He is gracious enough to let me keep my salvation.

In my opinion, the strong words and warnings are not necessarily meant to scare us into doing the right things, but are intended to set us free to step out in ‘faith and trust’ to please Him and go for it!  It’s not that we have nothing to lose, because we do.  At the same time, we are encouraged and set free to go for heavenly rewards and earning of His pleasure!  Holy Spirit will even help us do it.  God is Amazing.

(Jim - Rich would never call you a schmuck.  He calls you a gick - which is a generally applicable term created by our group of friends while growing up of which Rich and Jim are two of the greatest…friends I mean.)

Thanks all.  Hopefully still growing here & looking forward to more good discussion in the future.  Merry Christmas to all & to all a goodnight.